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Karune, Blizzard’s RTS community manager, has posted a request for feedback for one of the Zerg’s most evolutionary unstable and important “tools” - the Nydus Worm. As witnessed during BlizzCon 2008, the Nydus Worm is no longer a unit, but a transportation gateway which can be planted by an Overseer.
This “summoning” ability only requires energy - aside from the Nydus Canal, this operation does not require any resources - and the worm will pop up after a short delay.
This represents a mild deviation from the StarCraft 1 implementation that was observed during WWI in July 2008.
Here’s what Karune had to say:
Zerg Nydus Worm
The Nydus Worm is a unit that has undergone several changes since its unveiling and we are curious to the feedback on the latest round of changes shown at BlizzCon.For those who do not know, the Nydus Worm is a tunnel opening to a network in which you can store your army. When the Nydus Worm springs from the ground, it can allow that whole army to start pouring out from that position as seen here: http://starcraft2.com/screenshot.xml?s=84
Nydus Worm prior to BlizzCon
Prior to BlizzCon, the Nydus Worm had to be summoned from the Nydus Canal, and only on creep. Thus, in order to do a drop, an Overlord was usually needed to drop creep, and then the Nydus Canal could spawn a Nydus Worm at that position. Also, because of the cooldown, typically for a mass drop, a Zerg player would need multiple Nydus Canals, to spawn multiple Nydus Worms at the drop position, to make sure the enemy couldn’t easily destroy the Nydus Worms before the Zerg army could come out.
Nydus Worm at BlizzCon
In the BlizzCon build, the Nydus Worm no longer is spawned from the Nydus Canal. Additionally, it no longer needs to be spawned in on creep as well. Instead, the Nydus Worm is spawned in from the Overseer, and is based on energy cost. Thus, if you have multiple Overseers, you could easily spawn multiple Nydus Canals (which will have a ‘build time’ before the worm erupts from the ground) and ensure a higher success rate of getting your units out.
Let us know your thoughts on the new changes. Also keep in mind, most of the discussion here is about gameplay mechanics, rather than the “numbers and stats” as those will always be changed to balance mechanics (i.e. changing build times for the Nydus, energy costs, hitpoints, etc).
Karune has also posted the following clarification:
When units enter the Nydus Worm opening or the Nydus Canal, they are in the Nydus network. They can exit at any opening, including the Nydus Canal building. There is no actual “tunneling,” and is actually more similar to loading units in a dropship. When all entrances/exits are destroyed, all units in the network will die, so if you are a Zerg player, make sure you don’t let that happen
The above note describes a very safe mode of transportation for the Zerg; as long as the player ensures that at least one Nydus Network Node is alive, the transported units are not in any danger of being lost without a fight.
Despite the fact that Karune’s request for feedback is a simplistic Like/Dislike poll, which you are welcome to vote on, the SC2Blog would like to guide the discussion to a slightly more technical side:
1) Do you consider a certain Nydus Worm implementation the best one, and if so, which one?
2) If you could implement any plausible Zerg transportation method, what would it be?
3) What additional “buffs” or “debuffs” would you see fit for units after Nydus Worm transportation?
21 Comments to “Nydus Worm Feedback Needed”
BlizzCon 2008: Changes to StarCraft 2 »
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2) I’d love to see a Zerg cannon sort of transport (http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/spacecannon.html). It could have a high ROF, and since the zerg units would be “in space” they’d be invulnerable, but this would be counteracted by them showing up very obviously on the mini-map and having a short “stunned” period upon landing.
Alternately, they could be launched in some sort of pod, but I think that’s too reminiscent of Drop Pods. Of course, the Protoss were the ones originally slated to have mobile defenses, while it seems the Zerg are the ones who are going to end up with it.
A third option would be to resurrect Ventral Sacs, but an Overseer carrying units will have it’s energy reduced (so if it’s 50% full it’s max energy is 50%)… this might be an effective compliment to the flashy cannon-shot method of transporting.
1) This implementation looks pretty good, especially with the energy, meaning that they’re very reusable
Q1: Do you consider a certain Nydus Worm implementation the best one, and if so, which one?
A1: Currently I think zerg will have troubles doing early game drops without scouting effectively which is just as good as using overlords in SC1. The changes are not that devastating to zerg but are ground breaking in terms of a finishing blow. Remember arbiters? Same effect.
Q2: If you could implement any plausible Zerg transportation method, what would it be?
A2: In reality I think zerg should be allowed another method of transportation. Or at least a way to get air transport. That’s what I would do.
Q3: What additional “buffs” or “debuffs” would you see fit for units after Nydus Worm transportation?
A3: None what so ever.
1) Do you consider a certain Nydus Worm implementation the best one, and if so, which one?
No. To me, this sounds like a bunch of good ideas that got thrown in a cage and strangled each other. The overseer requirement, from a lore and mechanic standpoint, seem arbitrary. It’s clear that the overseer requirement is only there to nerf the nydus worm, because it seems to strong to be able to pop it up anywhere on the map. While I can see how that would be too strong, this constraint seems artificial.
I think the coolest form of the nydus worm was the actual worm unit, that acted like a transport underground. I understand how there’s graphical issues with that. But honestly, from a graphical standpoint, if you have an island map with void space in between, what sense does it make that the nydus network can cross it at all?
If they stick with the current mechanic, I think that zerg should be able to pop a worm opening anywhere in sight range. In order to balance this, the opening would have to be weak, or expensive, or have a longer build time. Sure, this would make it hard to do ‘drops,’ or raids behind enemy lines.
But the whole point of starcraft is that the three races are totally different. I think that the difficulty with raiding is offset by the fact that once a worm is in place, you have a limitless number of units pouring in, as fast as the opening allows.
I like the overseer screeching idea from one of the posters at the battle.net forums. It reminds me of the ghost’s “nuclear launch detected” thing. It would also be some good eye candy or strategy to have the worm move towards the destination of the scream then toppling/stunning the units from the dune the worm generates while moving underground at a blistering speed. It’s also a good way to find out where the worm is heading.
An alternate idea would be having the worm’s mouth explode, spilling out the units on the battlefield for fast deployment. Then again it might be too similar to the arbiter’s (or in this case, the phase/warp prism) warp ability.
I don’t like the way the Nydus Canal is going. I think that an Overseer/Overlord should hover over a selected spot for a time, use some sort of a homing beacon (e.g. a loud low frequency sound that Nydus Worms can hear… like in Tremors) to let the Nydus Worms know where to pop out. The Overseer must wait for X amount of time for the Nydus Worm to get there (longer distance means longer wait time).
1) The one in which the Nydus worm actually tunneled around the map to get to places, functioning as a unit that can also be intercepted (if you can detect burrowed units). I mean, come on - how awesome would it be to have Zerg worms coming at your base from all directions, only showing up on the radar but not detectable otherwise? Then you’d scramble to intercept them, but it’d be too late… some of them would go through, and the swarm will obliterate your base in a few seconds.
2) The above! Who cares if they have to tunnel though space or water. It’s certainly better than having an Oversweer “summon” one. That’s just …….. silly.
Other than that, it would be cool if you could just set up Nydus Canals (only on creep) and then ones that are connected would automatically direct your units through them in an intelligent manner. Every time you give a command, the game would check if the unit would get there faster using the network. This will also make it more important to expand your creep, which is something Blizzard seems to be aiming for. You’d have that for on creep movement and have Nydus worms that could transport units off-creep.
3) If the worm is un-interceptable, I think units should come out covered in slime that would immobilize/freeze them for a short while. Unless the rate in which they exit the worm is reaaaaalllly slow.
1) Do you consider a certain Nydus Worm implementation the best one, and if so, which one?
The latest version seems the best.
2) If you could implement any plausible Zerg transportation method, what would it be?
I like the nydus worm, but I think there are important considerations.
First of all, I think the nydus worm should be a unit, built from a new nydus canal. It’s like a subway network. The nydus canal is the subway station, and the worms are the magical trains. Let me go into detail:
- Nydus worm should be a unit. (It’s basically an burrowed transport unit)
- Should require a nydus building (The nydus network seems to be a magical subway system ; we need a subway station to make the logical connection of where these worms come from.)
- Nydus building should build worms, costing resources and build time (It is strange that these underground worms just live underground and only come out to play when the overlord calls. Why are they not simply eating zealots? :/)
- Nydus worm is indestructable and undetectable while moving, but when reached its destination, it can be detected and killed, looking similar to a large burrowed lurker.
- Nydus worm can burrow/unburrow.
- Should not require creep to place nydus worm. (This creates situations where a zerg drop is impossible; consider an island covered in bunkers and missle turrents. SC1 would sometimes allow 1 or two units to be dropped in heavily fortified circumstances before the carrier was destroyed. Drop requirements can become a great hinderance in some situations resulting in stalemates.)
- Nydus worm can only move to locations within the radius of an overlord. This can be a shreak or whatever, but it does not take time to cast. (The overlord is only needed for this command; it does not need to stay there. The Nydus worm will move to that location and the overlord is no longer needed.)
- Nydus worm can not change course once given move command. (It is only able to move to a new location once it has surfaced from its subterranian adventure.)
- Nydus worm has a movement speed; is not instantaneous.
- Deployment rate of units should be based on size; zerglings are fast while ultralisks are slow and clog the system a little. (It makes sense and allows some gameplay considerations when unloading your units.)
- Nydus worm should have a fairly impressive hitpoint base.
To balance, I would have the player manage their nydus worms. They might lose hitpoints slowly while not on creep. On the other hand, perhaps units are healed while in the nydus network. While relocating, perhaps the worm is visible or detectable. There are plenty of options here, but I think the worm should be a unit and the player should have control over them.
Save the worms! Don’t revert to the Ventral Sacs!
3) What additional “buffs” or “debuffs” would you see fit for units after Nydus Worm transportation?
None.
Has anyone played a game called Dark Reign. It has a building in it. You place units in the building then give it a destination. A burrowed transport vehicle will travel to the destination selected and release its units. While underground it has almost no visibility so you could potentially release all your units right into an ambush. It could also be targeted as it traveled to the enemy base with a detector unit. I think that should be how the Nydus worm works.
Also I think it would be cool if as the nydus worm popped up from the ground it spewed creep everywhere first then settled itself and began to release units. That could technically count as the build time and would only take a few seconds. It would also add the creep into game play which seems to be the main zerg focus now.
I played Dark Reign. Had some cool concepts and was ahead of its time in some ways.
Joe, Joseph:
You guys are forgetting the main reason the Nydus Worms were changed from buildable units - Graphical issues with how to display the worm as it travels between islands/platforms. To be realistic, they’d have to actually show a long undulating body connecting the two islands, which would then mean that worms should be target-able while they’re in between islands, and so forth.
In the end they’ve settled for just creating the mouth at the end. A lot of work saved for them, but it makes no sense at all.
My biggest issue is that now Zerg gets “free” transports very easily. Every Zerg player is bound to have a lot of Overlords lying around, and by the time they hit Lair they should have enough energy to “cast” Nydus Worms once they’ve evolved into Overseers. The only way to balance this seems to be to increase the cost of the Overseer evolution, but that messes with the cloak-detection mechanic. Too expensive, and the Zerg will find it difficult to counter invisible units (already greatly nerfed compared to SC1).
OK, what if we rethink about it completely?
right now, the problem is..
1, Worm underground in space is just.. non-sense
2, overseer requirement seems artifical
3, the whole canal idea just seems silly.
Alright, so lets redo it. How about the Nydus worm is an actual unit? you can produce it in a new zerg building, then you load units inside, and put the Nydus worm into the building, and then it FIRES the worm into orbit and drop on wherever you can see it be?
On contact, the nydus worm’s head explodes, doing maybe 100 splash damage, and all the zerg units inside will pop out !
Kinda like an organic drop pod.
At least it makes more sense than going underground in impossible gaps in space…. right?
redrach: Was that really the reason? I thought we were talking about gameplay? These are magic trains after all! Once the mechanic works fluidly, then the logic can be defined. I think doing it the other way is obviously a restriction to design in this case.
I also see the overlords as a serious restriction, just as they were targeted in SC1 as a means of crippling supply, detection, and transport - you want to make sure you look after them when facing a smart player.
I feel Zerg cannon ideas might fail in the areas of:
- The cannon is not a transport unit.
- getting your units back from location they were fired to. (like from an island…)
- Transport method bypasses missle defence (I assume :/)
I like that idea! Very much in Zerg style! Launch a pod into space that explodes on contact with the ground, releasing the units inside. Suicide transport!
One way ticket… these are the Zerg, after all. Who cares whether a few Hydralisks return home after a mission or not?
to post 12, best idea yet.
Makes a lot more sense, feels zerg.
Who needs zerglings to have a return path, make it one way only. Have a creep organ that can SPIT the Nydus worm into Orbit and drop onto enemy grounds.
I sure hope blizz will get to read the above idea.
Hmm I’d rather the ventral sacs than the cannon. The cannon is too similar to the bugs in starship troopers.
Unlike everything else about the Zerg…
Hehehe! That’s true! I should say ‘even more’ like the the bugs in starship troopers
As a zerg fan, I love the worm-pod idea. It’s also THE way to destroy closely packed siege tank emplacements: just pop in a drop-worm doing 100 splash damage and it’s soon over for the tanks.
My only fear is that it sounds way too powerful. But there are many ways to nerf it:
- by having the units inside be stunned for a second on landing (which seems logical; they just crashed from orbit).
- by only being able to drop-worm into a place you currently have active vision of
- by having some kind of warning when a location is the target of a drop-worm, or perhaps when a drop-worm is launched, or both
- by giving the ‘transport time’ a longish duration (10 to 20 seconds)
So I think it’s an excellent idea overall.
To post 12, great idea but no cigar. It works exactly like the arbiter’s recall in Starcraft, in fact it’s much better because the enemy doesn’t know it’s coming.
just read… I think it can work if you need an overseer to be an anchor on another point… yes, it will be just like recall, but the existing nydus worm is also.. just like recall.. just completely unrealistically so..