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It’s time for a new monthly discussion topic, created by Blizzard for the purpose of gathering fan feedback. This month’s topic is the Baneling, a Zerg unit that’s been revealed way back, during the initial StarCraft 2 announcement in Korea. The Baneling has changed since, but Blizzard is still unsure about its role on the battlefield and requires your opinions.
Here’s a list of the changes the Baneling has gone through recently:
Now
190 damage per Baneling (40+150 to building)
Increased splash range (100% damage taken throughout range)
Can be well positioned to hit multiple buildings
Larger & Movement Speed Slower (possible to defend with focus fire)
Counters Zealots, Zerglings, base Marines (not upgraded) -More Narrow window of use
Before
Fast and small- Unable to defend against (focus fire)
Countered virtually all ground units
The Baneling has transformed into the Zerg’s anti unit-spam measure. Able to take on and harm multiple small enemies, it has enough direct impact damage and splash to take out multiple Marines and Zerglings in a single hit. Not only that, it is extremely dangerous to buildings, especially if they’re clumped up. Suicide runs, aimed at critical buildings or concentrations of defensive structures, will likely be very common - and with the incredible amount of damage each Baneling can inflict, very few of them will actually have to connect with their target. A Phase Cannon, for example, will only survive a single Baneling explosion; the second one will destroy it.
However, since the Banelings are now slower and bigger, players who have their hand on the pulse and can micromanage their forces well enough will be able to take the Banelings down before suffering the explosive consequences. There’s one important thing we don’t know about the Banelings, though, that will ultimately decide how often it is used: how much does it cost?
Blizzard has a few specific questions about the Baneling:
Questions for fans:
* How do you like the new Baneling?
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
* Additional feedback you might have
Additionally, the SC2 Blog’s questions are:
1) How much should the Baneling cost? Remember, it’s an evolution of the Zergling which already costs 25 minerals.
2) Should the Baneling be able to mutate back into its original form?
3) How many Banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
Please structure feedback as follows:
<question you’d like to answer>
<your answer>
<question you’d like to answer>
<your answer>
The Baneling joins two others units, the Ghost and Mothership, in receiving its own dedicated monthly topic. Both units have received major changes since - and the Baneling will too, depending on your feedback!
49 Comments to “StarCraft 2 April Discussion Topic: The Baneling”
Q&A 34: Strike Fighters, Free Marines, Corrupting Clouds »
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I like explosions. My question is, does the Baneling’s AOE attack harm your other Zerglings, like the Terran Siege Tank? Similarly, when it is killed en-route, does the explosion harm your other Banelings? Can the Baneling be Anti-Grav-ed, then forced to explode within range of other “Lifted” buildings?
That last question would be an example of a Protoss and a Zerg player ganging up on a Terran player. This, of course, assumes you can Anti-Grav your Ally’s units. Idle speculation.
How many banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
tough one, I think about four.
It depends on how many zerglings/hygras etc can fit inside.
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
Well, now that Banelings have more damage and splash radius, burrowing them in chokes is that much more deadly - and the speed nerf in no way reduces its effectiveness! Looks like the Zerg can add mines to their already impressive list of base defenses.
Also, looks like Banelings will now replace Zerglings as meatshields/damage absorbers in Lurk-ling attacks - you have to choose between focus-firing the Banelings and letting the Lurkers get close and burrow, or taking out the Lurkers but eating huge damage from the exploding Banelings.
Quick question, what Tier are Banelings? (Early Tier 2, I’m guessing ?)
Ah, just checked - it seems Banelings were (still are?) Tier 1.5 (Hatchery, but need their own building). 3-4 Banelings seems like a decent way to break a walled-in Terran, and other ramp blocks.
* How do you like the new Baneling?
I liked it the moment I saw it which is why I am writing this, I like the idea of easier and more efficient use of the infested terrans old role. I would prefure that not to change…not too much anyway
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
I highly emagine myself using the Baneling against masses of enemy ground units. Especially Zealots. Using them to screw up worker units is also possible.
Other people think they will make a great minefield but I am not too convinced. Anyone smart enough to bring a detector with them will swat any burrowed Baneling before they can be used.
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
Pros: Good for weakening bases and thinning out enemy numbers
Cons: Will likely blow my own units up in the process
* Additional feedback you might have
Recommend this to be Tier 2 (which it probably is, just throwing that out incase it is not)
Additionally, the SC2 Blog’s questions are:
1) How much should the Baneling cost? Remember, it’s an evolution of the Zergling which already costs 25 minerals.
An extra 25 minerals and 75 gas comes to mind. (note: that’s the price of Scourges)
2) Should the Baneling be able to mutate back into its original form?
No
3) How many Banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
Lets see, Banelings are about the size of Hydralisks. Probably should only be able to fit as many Banelings as you can fit Hydra’s. Although thats just for the sake of logic, not balance.
I can’t really have a good opinion on this without actually seeing the unit in action, so here are my guesses:
1. How much do you like Banelings?
I like them overall. As others have said, they take the infested terran role and make it more usable.It does seem like the sort of thing the zerg would do, after using scourge successfully.
2. What possibilities do you see for the baneling?
Anti-melee obviously, if the damage per cost works out, they might be useful for fighting large units (like ultralisks) and killing them quickly as well. Otherwise, other people seem to cover the roles pretty well.
3. What are the pros/cons for this new baneling?
Pros: The unit’s function makes sense, its role makes sense, and it is a natural unit for the zerg to have.
Cons: As described above, they seem like they might be too powerful vs. defensive buildings (Again, I would need ot see them in action to be sure.)
They might be a bit too powerful vs. early game units. (Sending a swarm of pure banelings seems like a way to make sure all of them get through and annihilate whatever they are fighting.
4. Additional Feedback?
Unlike motherships and ghosts, most of the issues with a baneling will likely be around how the numbers balance out, so having lots of videos would be nice to see how the baneling actually plays in game (knowing the cost would also be important.)
SC@blog special questions:
1. How much should the baneling cost?
Without knowing exactly how slow and easy to kill it is, I am not sure, but I’m guessing 50 minerals 25 gas, or just 50 minerals if it is slow enough that ranged units can wipe out large amounts without them getting close. (These cost includes the original zergling cost.)
2. Should the baneling be able ot mutate back into its original form?
99% of me says no, (The 1% is the “unless someone comes up with a really great way to work it.”). Mainly this is because of previous “units morph” units not being able ot turn back.
3. How many banelings should be able to fit into a nydus worm?
This would depend on how many of other units can fit in a worm. I’d go with 4, but that’s just a guess, without knowing other information about nydus worms and banelings, it’s realy hard to tell.
1. How much do you like banelings?
-very much indeed. I had loved the infested Terran unit in sc1, but there was almost no chance to use it, unless my opponent was a beginner. I have used it many times in single player mode in 8:1 melee, though.
2. What possibilities do you see for using the banelings and what strategy could be viable with the baneling against the different races?
-I see myself using it as a terrific weapon against bunkers, melee units such as zealots, and destroying an opponents economy.
-for Zerg vs Zerg, terrific for destroying melee units such as ultra, and if you are smart enough, you can use it to destroy lurkers that are burrowed by setting a regular zergling on top of the lurker and using the baneling to kill the zergling.(which will also effect the lurker because of its splash damage.(when there are no “overseers” to detect))
…comment 8 continued..I’m writing this on my itouch, so I have to send many…
Question number 2 continued-
For Zerg vs Terran- destroying bunkers, heavy units like the “crucio tank” in siege mode, and the Thor.(ah. Bring back the original big Thor that was built outside of the factory please.)
For Zerg vs Protoss-
destroying zealots, colossuses, and pylons powering cannons.
3. What are the pros and the cons for this new baneling?
-pros-effective against the strong defence lines that the terrans have, great on the strong zealots, and great against heavy armed units, and also economy.
-cons-100percent splash damage is a little too much. This unit is great, and I like it. However, the widely feared “zergling rush” would now be a chilling thought. Horror for other players. This unit should have splash damage percentages as the seige tank.
4. Addtional feedback.
-great innovative unit. Applause to the creator. However, this unit is a bit too strong at the moment against buildings. Maybe plus 100, not 150. 2 hits and a phase cannon is gone. Hmm. A bit too “power overwhelming” , and “who’s your daddy” kind of thing. Way too strong on buildings.
.
p.s: this was wrote on my itouch, and it was hard to type. Please don’t say anything bad about this comment. Thank you!
oh, and 1 more thing. If the overlords or the overseers get the ability to carry units, it would might as well be called a bomber plane. Carrying banelings and dropping them while moving would have a terrific effect. (I bet that it would be hard to balance it then.) stick to the idea that overlords cannot carry units…although I like it…
first poster hinted at a really interesting thing for strategies. in 2vs2’s, if you have a protoss who antigravs his zerg ally’s banelings, you have AOE scourges that require lots of precision and coordination.
Will there be a control option to make banelings explode on the terrain? i’m assuming this is already the case, since it was said that [banelings do not have to actually reach the building] so then part 2 of the question is, will there be a control option to make banelings go after targets within it’s area? (like any other unit does when given the command “attack-click” on terrain)
1) How do you like the new Baneling?
I do not like the baneling at all. I think it is a cheap, heavy damage, instant win unit that will be used over and over by all zerg players. I can just see how frustrated I will be when I get pulverized by a noob…
2) What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
If I liked it, I would attack/divert the enemies forces (specifically air) away from the main entrance of his main base. I would attack with bombers (guardians), taking out his heavy artillary, then move in with banelings and hydras.
Or, I could just send wave after wave of banelings with expendable escorts to his mineral bases. while he runs low on money, I would launch an assault on his base targeting factories and starports.
3)What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
Pros- Instant win. Cheap, heavy assault unit. A great deal of damage per hit. Easily produced.
Cons- Again, it is an instant win unit. No real counter to it in a skilled enemies hands. Takes the fun out of the game by adding stress and annoyance.
4)Additional feedback you might have
Scrap the Baneling, or Nerf it. Besides, it looks like something out of Warcraft III, which is a VERY BAD THING.
4. Additional feedback:
I think it’s a good idea to make the banelings deal damage which based on their health. It’s like the Kamikaze skill in Final Fantasy 8 (I don’t know much about other FF games) which deals more damage if the character has higher health. Blizzard still can make the game more balance by adding the minimum damage for the wounded banelings about 50 or something like that. This will help making baneling rush less overpowered and forcing player to use more micro control or build more units to have the job done. Later upgrade that make baneling deal full damage at lower health can be added if it’s really needed.
The following opinion is a bit off topic but since I was almost the last person posted comment on the previous topic so it seems like no one is gonna look at it anymore. I still want to repost it here to share my opinion with others (some grammar errors corrected ^^): I also think that they should keep the old medics. Not that I love them because they are the most feminine units of the game, but they make very good combo for Terran assaults. If Blizzard really wants the healing dropships, they could simply make a merge option when a medic is transported inside a dropship, this option will combine the two unit like two templas of the Protoss merge into an Archon. This will somehow make some dropships specilized to aid infantry units as well as keep others with transportation role only.
There are people who read you post dude! I think your idea with reducing damage per hp is great.
hey meo, I read your comment in the last topic heh. that’s what comment RSS is for.
Uhm, what’s to stop this scenario:
1. A two or three Baneling rush hits mineral line
2. All SCVs/Probes/Drones are destroyed instantly
3. Game over
If the Baneling is available too early, it’ll be a really cheeshy rush indeed. Hopefully this will be picked up in testing.
*cheesy
* How do you like the new Baneling?
It’s cool, but I think I like it more in the role of “melee splasher” than “building splasher”. The reasons are simple: zerg doesn’t have an EASY direct counter to stuff like M&M&F. If you’re not Savior, it’s quite hard to break it and it very much defines the ZvT game. But we don’t want SC I with better graphics, do we? Also, and more important IMHO, zerglings are so cooler taking buildings down!!! Specially the new zerglings, they ARE the zerg spirit embodied. In both cases, I think banelings should kill themselves with splash, so they can be a little more tactical and not spammed.
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
With the new role, taking down defended positions, specially Terran walls. Also killing melee units, but in the rare case when they’re not supported by ranged ones. Peon hunting might be fun too, depending on the cost and the height on the tech tree. With the old role, it’s definitely a melee counter, to be used together with others to draw fire in offensive case. Thinking about damage, it seems cool that they are so powerful, because that would render some expensive ground units useless and thus further make different race matches really different (which is really cool!).
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
Already said too much of it!
* Additional feedback you might have
I would find it much better if they crawled like bugs instead of rolling. They look pretty nice when they are static, but when they move it’s just a bit too comic.
1) How much should the Baneling cost? Remember, it’s an evolution of the Zergling which already costs 25 minerals.
It HAS to cost gas!!! Otherwise, it would be too much of an economic advantage not having to worry about it, while the others are sparing some minerals for it. I think the price should be something from 25/75 to 50/100, depending on the damage, splash range etc. We can’t forget that they die even when successful =).
2) Should the Baneling be able to mutate back into its original form?
Yes, but the cost should be lost forever.
3) How many Banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
Just enough to take a barracks or something, nothing more. By all the gods they shouldn’t be able to take a CC with a single Nydus Worm!
* How do you like the new Baneling?
–> THE NEW BANELING IS KIND OF COOL, SEEING THE FACT THAT IT IS NOW LIKE A FAT BOMB READY TO BLOW UP, BUT THE FACT THAT IT IS SLOW SPOILS THE ZERG THEME BECAUSE THE ZERG ARE SUPPOSE TO STRIKE FAST AND HARD. BANELINGS WILL JUST SLOW THE SWARM DOWN DURING AN ASSAULT
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
–>BANELINGS COULD BE USED AS SECONDARY STRIKE FORCES. LIKE WHEN THE SWARM IS ATTACKING A BASE, THE BANELINGS COULD COME FROM THE SECONDARY LINES AND START SWARMING INTO THE BASE WIF COVER FROM THE UNITS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE.
–>ZERG: BANELINGS WOULD BE USEFUL IN BLOWING UP MANY UNITS AT A TIME AS WELL AS EXPLODING ON DEFENSE STRUCTURES CREATED BY THE QUEEN. BANELINGS CAN ALSO BE USED TO STOP INCOME BY BLOWING THEMSELVES AT THE DRONES NEAR THE MINERALS
–>TERRAN: DEFINITELY GOOD IN BLOWING UP BUNKERS. A CHUNK OF THEM COULD TAKE OUT SIEGE TANKS. GOOD FOR COUNTER ASSAULT AGAINTS REAPERS MARINES AND GHOST
–>PROTOSS: PHASE CANNONS MAYBE? IF IT’S SLOW IT CAN’T EVEN TAKE OUT A COLLOSUS…NOT A GOOD UNIT AGAINST PROTOSS, BANELINGS ARE EASILY COUNTER ATTACKED BY RANGED UNITS ON CLIFFS WITH THE LINE OF SIGHT OF AIR UNITS OR THE COLLOSUS
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
–>PRO: GOOD COUNTER ATTACK AS WELL AS SECONDARY BASE ATTACKERS
–>CONS: SLOW, NOT THAT USEFUL AGAINST PROTOSS AND…SLOW
* Additional feedback you might have
–>KEEP THE SPEED, MODERATE ARMOR IS ENOUGH. ATTACKS SHOULD FOCUS ON *ALL* GROUND UNITS AND MINOR BUILDINGS, SINCE IT IS THEIR ROLE.
1) How much should the Baneling cost? Remember, it’s an evolution of the Zergling which already costs 25 minerals.
–>ONE ZERGLING TO ONE BANELING –> 25 MINERALS 25 GAS
2) Should the Baneling be able to mutate back into its original form?
NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. WHY WOULD ONE MUTATE IT TO A BANELING AND BACK.
3) How many Banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
UNSURE. I’M STILL NOT CLEAR ABOUT NYDUS WORMS
PS: GO BLIZZARD! YOU GUYS ROCKS!!
agree with SC2 FAN on their costs. banelings are super suicide units. you don’t see SC players building infested marine for 100/100 each, coz these guys suicide in combat. it’s like flying resources…LOL
umm…this is off subject, but please change the shape of the hydralisk when it attacks and change the lurkers shape. Is has a very grotesque shape.idont like It.(posting this because i hope atleast 1 person would read it and change something….T.T)
…just change the lurkers head into something like the hydralisks that you guys have drawn on the concept…the body part is ok…and the lurkers ability to burrow is too quick now.it is like 0.4seconds…
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
Their damage against buildings is impressive, so I must counter the question with another question! Since they’re tier 1.5, couldn’t the player do a mirror of the 4 drone, spawning pool then 6 zergling rush? Except instead of zerglings, banelings. And instead of attacking the mineral line, attack the town hall itself, and possibly destroy it, rendering the enemy unable to recuperate, ever?
Maybe a higher tier for those big, green, exploding things. (:
Banelings need gas to be evolved, and possibly for their required structure as well. There’s no way you can compare it to 4/5/6/9-pool. A single scout will reveal your questionable “rush”, and then focus-firing Marines/Stalkers/Roaches ftw.
* How do you like the new Baneling?
>>> yes
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
>>> anti cannon grid, melee support and tactical bombardment using nydus worms (especially on mineral lines)
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
>>> Pro: it damage to buildings are devastating!! Con: If its slow and big, it will probably get killed before it reaches its target.
1) How much should the Baneling cost? Remember, it’s an evolution of the Zergling which already costs 25 minerals.
>>> i think it should be gas-dependent. less min, more gas.
2) Should the Baneling be able to mutate back into its original form?
>>>hell no! since when did Zerg ever revert to its original form?
3) How many Banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
>>> it psi 2 right? so probably equal to the number of hydras that would fit in a nydus worm.
I noticed some people seem to act as if banelings are invulnerable and 200 of those things will completely vaporise and entire base.
Before you all cry “IMBALANCE” I have this to say:
Last I heard banelings to NOT have alot of hit points and are NOT very fast.
This means an equal mass of ranged units will easily counter a mass of banelings. Marines, Hydra’s, Lurkers, Stalkers all come to mind
This is why I dont think they will be effective against clusters of marine laden bunkers. Although they could easily be used on sunken colonies and phase cannons.
Also dont forget that clustered Banelings will probably be their own worst enemy
* How do you like the new Baneling?
I think it’s a nice evolution for the Zergling and gives a viable and usable “Infested Marine” concept.
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
1) Raids - A Nydus Worm filled with Banelings and pop up beside a Commander Center/Nexus/Hatchery can decimate the entire economy.
2) Layered Armies - A good frontal siege tactic might be to have two layers, the front are Zerglings and behind them are Banelings. Basically the Zerglings serve as “shields” for thet Banelings to penetrate. Conversely, the opposite would work as well, especially when fighting against melee units: banelings on the front rank to weaken enemies and Zerglings finishes off any survivors.
3) Defense - A Zerg army can just focus on offense and keep some Banelings in reserve to defend the base. Strategically the Zerg has the edge here because as defenders, they don’t need any troops to survive, just to halt the opposing army (as opposed to a siege where you need some surviving troops to counter any troops that the base might produce in addition to dealing constant damage to buildings).
4) Mobile Spider Mines - Same concept as in Starcraft 1 although requires more micromanaging (but gives the player more control).
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
It’s a give and take. It’s weak against range attackers (larger targets, slower move speed) but it can theoretically cripple melee units more. You only need one baneling for example to decimate 4 or more tightly-packed marines/zerglings.
* Additional feedback you might have
I think a balance factor here would be the cost. If it’s too cheap, then what’s stopping the Zerg from overrunning the enemy with simple suicide runs? (Zerglings and Banelings combination.) On the other hand, if it’s too expensive, would it be practical to actually use the unit in combat? However, a caveat here is that it’s more useful than the Scourge since there’s usually more ground units than air units and the Banelings can damage buildings impressively so it actually gets more mileage than the Scourge ever will.
I have some questions (sorry if someone has already asked about these before):
Does the baneling explode if it is killed? If the damage type of the banelin is corrosive acid, does the acid that is being spilled on the ground when the baneling is killed damage any units that walk over it?
* How do you like the new Baneling?
Looks ok, except is a little bit unremarkable in that it is just a kamikaze unit.
* What possibilities do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
I would probably enjoy moving zerglings near the rear of a base, and morph to baneling and surprise siege. I would also set aside a few zerglings during an assault to morph to baneling and hopefully protect them during their mutation.
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
Pros: They seem pretty effective. The zerglings are fast and plentiful so you’ve got bombs at your disposal.
Cons: The con will probably be gas cost.
* Additional feedback you might have
This unit seems a little boring. Some suggestions I have that could make it more interesting would be a) Allow morph to occur while burrowed, and b) ramp up movement speed over time, so they need to get a run up to get their movement speed benefit. Oh, and I want them to look like they’re really struggling with this rolling locomotion! Like their little legs are kind of trying to get a grip on the ground, in a kind of cute effect.
[How do you like the new Baneling?]
Well, a good idea as a new type of Kamikaze unit, having the infested terrans as ranged units instead..
[What possibilities do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?]
Is the baneling available from the start, or is it something you have to upgrade? If it is a unit that you start with:
Protoss Killer - Since it is a kamikaze unit, and since zealots depend on close range combat - a spam in the beginning could very well mean the end of zealots. And if they then get into the toss base, it could very well be GG really early on.
Since it’s slow, and only counters tier 1ns and buildings, I guess other strats which would prove effective would be the sudden strike with nydus.
[Pros/Cons]
Virtually that has already been said - lots of damage, but slow. Against ranged attackers such as Marines, it could mean the end of Banelings, depending on their final HP, but against melee units it’s dangerous.
[Additional Feedback]
As I were saying, these could mean the “end of toss players” though depending on the final stats - since zerg is swarm and toss is strong&few, a kamikaze swarm which deals devastating damage would be a bit too powerful. But that also depends - will the kamikaze explosion deal damage to ones own units? if that is the case, a single zealot could repel quite a few banelings with good micro. If not, Tassadar would cry in shame.
If the banelings DID damage own forces - then the cost wouldn’t be so high, but a good micro could be in place. Banelings would be carefully used, since it would be a double edged sword in some ways, and I believe it would give a more deeper meaning of the baneling - other races spotting a baneling in a tight formation would target that baneling first to decimate zergs swarm, just like the DT spider mine bombs in SC1. A careful use, but rather generous availability would be perfect according to me.
The “more speed as longer it rolls” would be pretty fun, but then you would like to see a struggle to turn at high speeds, as the look of the unit rolling indicates a hard time steering.
- Hope to get feedback for my text
I LUV BANELINGS
* How do you like the new Baneling?
I like the non-rolling art quite a bit. Perhaps the baneling skitters quickly on all fours, but when it gets attacked it curls up into a ball and bounds across the battlefield ready to explode. (Seems more cinematic)
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
Land mines! A burrowed baneling should be able to set to explode if something steps on it as a special ability.
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
The baneling looks better as a small unit, but it certainly needs to be easily targeted. If they glow green, they will also be easier to target and notice (this is why the heroes from Warcraft 3 glow)
* Additional feedback you might have
It would be very fun if transports and nydus canals could direct its cargo to directly attack upon unloading. This would allow for allied air transports to do a “baneling air raid” or all a nydus wurm to be a bit like a rocket launcher.
I really like the idea of banelings only curling up into a bouncing ball when they are attacked!
If this causes them to speed up it both allows for an easier to balance unit and also more cinematic/scary game play.
****How do you like the new Baneling?
Personally I love the Baneling because they really resembles zerg, sacrifice anything/everything as long as the goal was reached. In SC, I love the infested terran idea too, however it was virtually impossible to use, due to them exploding on each other while attacking, and if you attack alone with it, it dies before it got a chance to explode. If you mix infested Terran with other units and attack with it, you lose everything that goes with it, so in a way you are losing as much as the opponent. And let’s not forget the chance of finding Command Center. Baneling’s idea fits zerg flawlessly, and it seems they do not have the flaw of splash damage on ally units, which is great. I’m a Zerg player, I play mainly on Python/LT. What I noticed is that, if player just hold the choke with marine or zealot, then zerglings are virtually useless, since they cannot surround. All the opponent need is to reach a certain quantity then even if they come out, quantity of zergling need to be 2 or 3 times more than them in order to kill those troops (either m&m or zealot). It has been calculated 2.5 lings > 1 zealot, however, 5 ling < 2 zealot. As zealot quantity increases, zerglings need to increase more then double or triple in order to over come zealot’s combined power. In team games, no one masses zerglings on Python or LT. Reason being, they just die way too fast in team games, they require a lot of proper positioning. By the time you reach good amount of zerglings, opponent will either muta or good amount of M&M or zealot + Archon. I saw replay of Savior play SC2 as zerg. With his micro, his 6 zerglings couldn’t kill 2-3 zealots. And it is very common that in team game of SC, 2 protoss player each rush into zerg base with 3 zealot, that makes total 6 zealot and zerg only has 12 zergling + 1 sunken could not stop the rush. Only way is to pull the drone to assist, and zerg were already behind on peons due to morphing buildings. I think baneling is the answer to make Zerg stop sucking in early team games.
****What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
ZvT: I would love to send about 4 of those with a squad of zerglings to take out a chunk of marines, to stop them from doing mass marine + jackal. If they use depos to block a choke or ramp, then it would be easier to break in with baneling, since right now, zerg couldn’t do jack after the entrance has been sealed and guarded by one single bunker with only 4 marines. Then terran just slowly tech and get air to hunt lord/drones, or tank/vulture drop or marine + jackal peon line drop. It is like zerg always has to find something to counter the opponent, instead of getting something and force opponent to counter. Baneling would help to force Terran to take some precaution against it.
The best result would be using nydus worm and send in banelings to the peon line and break economy. Knowing that, Terran might position buildings in good distance from each other so Nydus worm does not have enough open ground to pop up around the peon line. I have no idea how Nydus worm works, so I cannot say baneling + nydus worm would work out.
I would use baneling to take out detectors for lurkers. However, don’t know how effective that will be considering lurker is now tier 3. By then opponent might already have Science Vessel and turret’s absence would not affect visual of lurker any longer.
I think Jackal will be a major problem for Zerg. It is like a moving lurker, which if I had lots of zerglings and knowing half of them will probably die due to jackal, I will most likely mutate half of them and spread them out and try to take out jackal as fast as I can.
Terran’s peon line is always like a fortress. 1 full bunker + 1 tank + 1 turret usually stops opponent going straight for peon. Reason being when siege tank blasts, hydra will try to attack siege tank. And when Siege tank is out of range, instead keep attacking peons, they simply stops attacking. Which makes terran’s peon line the least raided out of all three races so far. With baneling I think it would be slightly easier to raid since u could actually just attack one scv and end up killing a bunch.
ZvP: First, I would definitely use it to counter zealot. Right now in SC, the ONLY way to counter mass zealot + archon is lurker + hydra/zerglings. But if it wasn’t positioned properly, lurker will die, everything will die. Baneling provides an alternate solution. It will stop protoss to win simply by mass producing zealot.
I do not know the timing and tier of all SC2 units so I am just making assumptions here. Phoenix are probably similar to corsair. It is rather annoying to have those kill lord in your main base and drop in 1 to 2 DT and kill most your drones or destroy your pool. Every game ZvP in SC1, I was forced to make early chamber spore, which cost me two drones, and on top of that I had to make another one at my early expansion. With baneling I think I would use baneling and pull the SCV + Tank splash dmg move. Move 2 zerglings with 1 baneling (incase he kills one of my zerglings) then when around DT(which is not hard to guess) use baneling to attack my own zergling and splash kill DT.
ZvANY
I think I would burrow two baneling at an mineral place. When people try to expand, I unburrow and use both of them to attack at same time. That would destroy the building before player got a chance to cancel, it would waste them 300 or 400 mineral (if you do keep the same price of CC, Nex, and Hatch in SC2).
Use roach to block off a troop that’s rushing to save some place and then position the battle so when I unburrow the banelings it will kill lots of the troops. I use roach because with their high regeneration rate it will be able to sustain enough damage for me to position and lure the enemy troops right on top of my banelings.
In team games I could ask my ally to transport banelings and drop them like bombs at peon lines.
**** What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
Pros: -Helps defend deadly mass zealot rush.
-helps to take out key structures (upgrading buildings, pylons, zerg pools, den, spire etc.)
Cons: -Might be really costly if you want them to really take affect.
-won’t be effective unless you have more then 4 since opponent will make it primary target.
**** Additional feedback you might have
How about make baneling to have little less life, so it will die in one hit by cannon, but make it a low auto priority target, so player HAS to target it manually otherwise if a bunch of ling sent with baneling, cannon will target lings over baneling.
Additionally, the SC2 Blog’s questions are:
1) How much should the Baneling cost? Remember, it’s an evolution of the Zergling which already costs 25 minerals.
I would say about 50 min 25 gas to mutate one, since considering each scourage only cost 12.5 min and 47.5 gas. And good units eat up so much gas for zerg. The Lurker, Ultralisk, hydra gas really adds up also. Since baneling would be 1.5 tier or so, gas will be very tight at that point in game.
2) Should the Baneling be able to mutate back into its original form?
I don’t think there would be a point. It is up to the player to scout often enough and only mutate just right amount of baneling. If the player over mutated baneling that means they did not pay attention to what opponent is up to.
2) How many Banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
I would leave baneling same size as zergling, that’s the only way it would make sense. I have no idea exactly how nydus worm operates therefore I cannot give constructive comment. Before with overlord dropping units, you could drop vast amount of units in a small area. But it seems like right now nydus worm requires big space for its head to pop out. I don’t know if it could pop out and transport as much as what amount overlord could drop. Consider IF nydus worm has twice capacity of one overlord that means 1 nydus worm could release 16 lings which equals 2 lord drop 16 lings, overlord still is better than nydus worm at transport. Reason being it only takes half amount of time to drop 16 zerglings with overlord. And with overlord drop, it could avoid powerful ground units like mass tanks. What happens if 5 worms pop out of the ground, but there were about 12 tanks, that covers whole are of base. I suspect 3 of those worms would die before it could deliver a single unit out. I guess I need more information regarding Nydus Worm.
(Quoting Philip Alford) “It would be very fun if transports and nydus canals could direct its cargo to directly attack upon unloading. This would allow for allied air transports to do a “baneling air raid” or all a nydus wurm to be a bit like a rocket launcher.”
Thats an interesting thought; emagine if Nydus worms could “spit out” zerg units over a distance. This in combination with Banelings would give you a giant living grenade launcher.
Emagine the uses:
-send sneak attacks against specific areas
-drop units closer to their targets
-launch zerglings across the map
LOV THE NEW BANELING ESP THE EXPLODING GREEN BLOB WHEN THEY DIE. GREAT AGAINST MASS ZEALOTS WHICH I FEAR A LOT.
BASICALLY THE BANELINGS ARE ANTI SPAM UNITS LIKE THE BLOG HAS POSTED. NOT MANY COMMENTS FOR THIS BUT AGAINST TERRANS, THE NYDUS WORMS AND BANELING COMBO MAY PROVE A TERRIFYING FOE AGAINST TANKS.
PROS- GOOD AGAINST MASS ZEALOTS AND LINGS
CONS- SURELY DIE UNDER HEAVY ARTILERY SUCH AS SIEGE TANKS AND PROBABLY THORS, MAYBE COLLUSUS AS WELL
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS- MAKE IT A TIER 1.5 UNIT…SO THAT THE PROTOSS WULD HAV MORE COUNTERS AGAINST THEM AND ALSO SUCH THAT IT CAN STILL COUNTER MASS ZEALOTS
To SCFan and i luv guardians: please turn off your caps lock when writing comments, they are quite toigh to read.
i wanna play sc2 now. zerg seems to be way awesome
Just a thought, but what if zerg evolutions were only allowed on zerg creep? I never really understood where the zergling got all it’s explosive potential to become this baneling unit… But if it got it from creep then that would make sense to me, as well as possibly diversify play a little more.
This mixed with a ramped movement speed mechanic could be interesting. I like the idea that the baneling would be more dangerous if it were in a speedy charge (harder to target manually). As maK mentioned, the turning speed could be ramped down as the movement speed ramped up. They could also explode automatically when colliding with something at high speed. If these mechanics were in place, they could become harder to use effectively, as well as being map dependent, which might make them more fair in matches between experienced and new players.
The ‘only on creep’ suggestion is similar to some other suggestion I had ages ago about pylons casting force field and other protoss abilities (mana transfer) only being allowed in powered areas. I’m sure it restricts many tactics, but made more sense to me than the nullifier (on paper, anyway). I like things that make sense conceptually
@Joe:
Evolution only on creep would really cut down on how you can use the Banelings… as of now, you can send in a group of Zerglings, and after a battle have the badly injured ones morph into Banelings to regain full HP (like with Hydras and Lurkers).
I’m all for conceptually sounds mechanics, but unit-evolution has been a key Zerg mechanic all along. If Hydralisks and Mutalisks can do it anywhere, why make an exception just for Zerglings?
*How do you like the new Baneling
>>>I like it, I guess. It would depend on how useful they are as they game develops, but it’s good to have a melee counter.
*What possibilities do you see for the Baneling
>>>In general, I think its a specialized unit which will work best when mixed in with zerglings. However, note that the roach gives the zerg another hard-to-kill unit. Maybe they will be used in combination. As I see it, roaches provide limited “bang for the buck”. As a result, they will probably be used only as melee counters, building destroyers, defensive units, and exotic units.
Protoss
As someone else mentioned, banelings are great against not only photon cannons, but also pylons. They are most useful against massed units and melee units, so they will play a very limited role (do they trigger the immortal shield?). So they will be used against buildings, zealots, and mixed in with lings, but that’s it. Because protoss relies on slowly building up a force, Banelings might be devastating in flanking maneuvers.
Human
They seem like a good marine counter, as they buy zerglings enough time to get to marines. Siege tanks will destroy them, and other terran units might be faster than they are, so they would only be useful when the game is already going the zerg’s way.
Zerg
They should shine in Zerg v Zerg. Few zerg units have the range to ward them off. So they should be good zergling and hydra counters.
*Additional Feedback
>>>One suggestion I have is to give the baneling an expensive speed or damage upgrade. This would make it more useful later in the game.
@Anonymous: Yea, I know you are right. Conditions without a gameplay reasons. Perhaps if any unit does not evolve on creep, then their hit points are not restored in full? Perhaps I should stop rambling
sorry about that…i didn’t know the writings would be so bright at the comp screen. d(o_o)b
yeah apologies abt that.
[Additional Feedback]
Well, I take back what I said about a Toss killer - I see now that the upgrade must be made before a Baneling can be made - about the same time Toss would be able to make Stalkers (I guess).
The speed for Banelings seems to be a pretty well-discussed topic - so a little feedback: Maybe an upgrade would be a little too much, it would mean that you first had to buy a ling (two), then upgrade the Bane evolve, then evolve the ling to bane, and after that upgrade speed or damage. Maybe have the Baneling ramp up their speed the longer they rolled in a line (90 degree turns or so would have them lose their momentum), and the higher the speed, the more the damage? Also, ramps would make the Baneling lose or aquire speed accordingly when they were rolling. Kinda like a wheel coming down a hill, smacking you in the face.. yeah you understand the concept
I am not sure anyone has really addressed how powerful banelings will be in conjunction with dark swarm. Two dark swarms up to base defenses basically guarantees that banelings will do damage and have a powerful effect. this gives an incentive to all factions to use more unit based defenses which I think is a great thing. The combined utility of the baneling with the infester also will encourage getting that unit into play.
I feel that the roach would be a more attractive unit if it could have a quick morph between melee and ranged use.
A core story theme for the zerg is that of infestation and terrorism, sneaking or penetrating defenses and attacking from unexpected areas. However I don’t think it is appropriate for the baneling to be effective against buildings. It should be a strong melee counter and a serious threat to all ground units, one that will move the battle lines like what we saw in the original gameplay video with the early collossus. That is strength enough for one unit.
you could also have them dig and evolve underground making them unable to move and effectually becoming a land mine you could make them cost 75 and have them deal LARGE amounts of damage, a great defense, ofcourse cost could diff as well as damge
1) How much should the Baneling cost? Remember, it’s an evolution of the Zergling which already costs 25 minerals.
Infested were what?? 150? so i would say something like 75 for the upgrade. (total 100)
2) Should the Baneling be able to mutate back into its original form?
No the chemical changes that are required for a Z-Ling to become one would be impossible to reverse, and a wase fo cash as well… should be able to cancel either (or cancelling returns a prorated mineral amnt)
3) How many Banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
2 or 4. Not 8. they are larger and more volatale.
We witnessed a very crazy day for the stock market yesterday. The DOW plunged 800 points only to come roaring back to close down 370 points. It was breathtaking for many of us because we were glued to our TV (and computer screen) as the stock market kept on going down but for some of us, it didn’t really matter because our focus was on other things.
Yesterday, I was extremely busy at work. I was so busy that I didn’t have time to check on Yahoo Finance nor did I have time to talk to my coworkers about the stock market. When I finally sat down and looked at how the market was doing, I saw the headline (DOW plunged 800 points and closed at 370) on the homepage. My net worth probably plunged just like any other 350 point down days, but it didn’t matter as much to me.
I wasn’t emotionally upset this time because I wasn’t “living” the roller coaster. As a result, it hurt my wallet but didn’t hurt my feelings. I felt much better and saved myself from much of the emotions of a down day just by focusing on other parts of my life. I wasn’t thinking about the stock market nor was I worrying about the Cisco (CSCO) shares that I owned.
I was living my life and not being controlled by the stocks I own. I felt good. In this type of market, maybe you should try it too.
How did you spend your day yesterday? Did you even know that the stock market plunged? Can you sleep at night these days? If you aren’t worried at all, reply and show some encouragement to those that couldn’t!
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* How do you like the new Baneling?
- Suicide tactics fit perfectly with the Zerg
* What possibilites do you see for using the Baneling, what strategies could be viable with the Baneling against the different races?
- It really depends on how it’ll be balanced in the end whether it will be cost effective.
Terrans: I think they’ll be the bane of siege tanks. Other than that, if there’s elevation in the terrain, Terrans should be able to easily counter them. On flat ground they could do some wicked damage though.
Protoss: If you use them in combination with a zerg rush to distract the turrets, you could take out the pylons instead? Thinking this would be devastating when done early in the game.
* What are the pros/cons for this new Baneling?
- I think the potentiality for devastating damage to the opponent with little micromanagement from the zerg player’s side is a con. All depends on balance really. With the Scourge in SC, you could always pull your aircraft behind your ranged ground forces. In this case, the opposite doesn’t necessarily apply, because banelings seem to be quicker to attain than a real airforce.
* Additional feedback you might have
- My gut instinct, make them tier 2. They sound like a wildcard if attainable too early in the game.
Additionally, the SC2 Blog’s questions are:
1) How much should the Baneling cost? Remember, it’s an evolution of the Zergling which already costs 25 minerals.
- 25 minerals and 75 gas (explosive flatulence)
2) Should the Baneling be able to mutate back into its original form?
- No, doesn’t make any sense.
3) How many Banelings should fit inside a single Nydus Worm?
- None, you have to have a trade off for the explosiveness. Maybe they’d have a risk of exploding inside the Worm, so there´s a possible reason.